Verses Seemingly Teaching Salvation Can/Can't Be Lost

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Verses Seemingly Teaching Salvation Can/Can't Be Lost

Post by Hello » Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:48 am

My intention with this thread is merely that we share some of the verses we think express either position (salvation from sin and wrath on sin can vs. cannot be lost).

Though I do believe there is an ultimate truth that can be known about the subject (can vs. cannot be lost), I cannot understand how all of the verses fit together; though there has been a lot of debate on the issue (some debate involving learned men, some not-so-learned--some in the right spirit, most not), I've honestly never seen the difficulties (necessarily arising from each of the verses being individually true) satisfactorily remedied.

With all of this in mind, I have not posted with an expectation that 4-Gospels Forums will be the place where this centuries-old (actually, probably millennia-old) problem will reach its ultimate conclusion; thus, if you are going to share, please do not debate thinking you will definitively prove what ever your belief is (can vs cannot be lost)--there are other threads for that sort of thing, and would be better if you did that there--just share some verses.


Salvation From Sin And Wrath On Sin CANNOT Be Lost:
John 17
6“I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.
12While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Romans 8
28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,h for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
(Doesn't this mean God knew particular people beforehand? That only these were predestined? That only these were called? That only these were justified by grace through faith? Does the "glorified" refer to the present state of believers [we're being transformed from one degree of it to another 2 Co 3:18] or does it refer to a future "glorification"? Would that even make a difference? This passage seems, by all accounts, to teach that there should be no doubt as to whether those who are saved will continue in it until the end.)

1 John 2
19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us.
(What is the definition of "us"? If "us" means "the ones who are born of God", then wouldn't this mean that anyone who is born of God will definitely continue in the truth until the very end?)


Salvation From Sin And Wrath On Sin CAN Be Lost:
John 15
1“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
(He says the branches/disciples are "in Christ"; John 1 says "in Him was life". If they are "in Christ" where the life is, doesn't this mean they are partaking of His life? If the branches/disciples remain in the Vine [Who is the Word], they will bear fruit; if they do not remain in the Vine [Who is the Word], they will not be able to bear fruit and will be cut off. What does it mean to "abide in the [Word]" if not "remain in faith"? Isn't this a warning against unbelief?)

Romans 11
17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing rootc of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
(Those who God "grafted in", who are "standing", by faith are warned. Many
"natural branches" experienced severity, and were cut off, for unbelief; those "grafted in" will not escape but become subject to the same severity if they exhibit unbelief.)

Hebrews 3
12Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
(He warns brothers they can become hardened by the deceitfulness of sin, and come to have an evil heart of unbelief, and become separated from God due to it.)

Galatians 1
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel
(The believers having departed from faith in the Good News to the false gospel of a demon [Gal 5:8; 1 Ti 4:1], they simultaneously "desert God" [as also Heb 3:12-13 warns] and are "severed from Christ" [John 15:1-6; Ro 11:17-22; Gal 5:4].)

Hebrews 10
36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. 37For,
“Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay;
38but my righteous one shall live by faith,
and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.”
39But we are not of those [in context, this speaks of "My righteous one" who must "live by faith"] who shrink back [start, but do not continue in faith] and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.
+
Hebrews 11
6And without faith it is impossible to please him...
+
Romans 1
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes...17for in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith,e as it is written, “The righteous shall live byfaith.”f 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
(The only way to please God is to walk in faith. Faith is the method whereby God's righteousness is revealed. By this, God is glorified [John 15:7,8]. The only other alternative is that we reveal our unrighteousness, upon which His wrath will rightly be revealed. If we do not remain in faith, because our hearts become hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, we will not be able to please Him.)

Romans 2 (speaking to believing Jews)
5But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.
...
17But if you call yourself a Jew...
(How are these Jews being warned they are storing up wrath for themselves if they are believers--and these Jews are certainly believers, since Paul doesn't write "Romans" to unbelievers but to believers--unless salvation [from sin and wrath on sin] can be "lost"/"forfeited" [on account of unbelief due to unrepentant indulgence in sin which hardens the heart], instead of persevering in "obedience of faith" [Jn 3:36 ESV; Ro 1:5; Gal 5:7; 2 Th 1:8] through which we enter into grace and "stand" [i.e., live righteously--the logical opposite being the term "stumble"] and bring glory to God [Mt 5:16; John 15:7,8; Ro 5:2]?)


This is not by any means an exhaustive list.

littleone
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Re: Verses Seemingly Teaching Salvation Can/Can't Be Lost

Post by littleone » Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:29 pm

my view on this is I belive you can walk away from it not I don't think you can lose it. but in rev Christ did warn us in chapter 3 also so God is the same yester day to day and for ever and is adam and eve and Christ desipels can fall the Jews what makes us think we are any better. I don't belive its works by all means but its the relationship. kinda like our moms and dad we can live with them or we can choose to move out . God opens the door for us but the choose is ours. 1 John says he will for give us and cleans us but we can not decive ourself in to thinking once we are save that we can do what ever we want judus was one of Christ people and he could have repented I belive this but cause he was about self he let the devil decive him and was blinded yet I belive Christ does know our hearts and will call us back but if we are like Judis and don't repent then we are domed. So it gose back to if we choose to head to Christ calling once again he's at the door knocking on our hearts so we much keep track of our own fruits and cling to Christ praying as Christ said that we don't fall. anyways I have a lot of plac e in the word I could show but I am not out to fight or convince for what if im wrong as well I just wanted to share what I belive and I once was a once saved always saved beliver till I belived the spirit showed me other wise. I cant argue in to heaven are out amen thanks for listing God bless

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