THE MAN CHILD

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larry
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THE MAN CHILD

Post by larry » Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:03 pm

THE MAN CHILD
A.S. Copley

"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered" - Revelation 12:1-2.

Read the twelfth chapter of Revelation. You can almost understand it, by reading it through. There may be different applications of some portions of Scripture; but there can be only one interpretation of any portion. Therefore, most of the interpretations of this chapter are incorrect and out of harmony with the rest of the Word of God. My discourse on this subject will fall into two parts - First: Who this man child is not. Second: Who he really is. The book of Revelation was written about 69 AD. The first verse declares that its contents should come to pass after that date. Bear this in mind in studying this twelfth chapter.

SEVERAL BACKGROUND FACTS

In this chapter, we read of three wonders or signs. The Greek word "semeion" is sometimes translated "wonder," and other times "sign." First: "A woman clothed with the sun" is called "a great wonder" or sign. Second: "Another wonder ... a great red dragon." Third: "A man child" which is also a wonder or sign, though not so termed; for if the woman who gives birth to the child is a wonder woman, then her child also must be a wonder child. That is plain logic. This is my meaning: The woman is not actually a woman, five feet tall, weighing one hundred and twenty-five pounds, and wearing a calico or silk dress, with a spring bonnet on her head. She is a wonder woman, a sign woman. She is a company of people likened to a woman - even as Jerusalem and Israel are likened to a woman (Isaiah 54:6), and the Church to a virgin (II Cor.11:2). Her child also is a company of people, as intimated by Rev. 12:10-11. John did not see a crocodile or an alligator in heaven. He saw "That old serpent, called the devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world." In the vision, John beholds him as "a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his head." Thus, he was a sign or wonder. I mention this, because some folks give a wrong interpretation to this wonder. Now let us notice a dozen proofs that -

THE MANCHILD IS NOT JESUS CHRIST

1. Jesus was not a sign or wonder child when He was born. He was actually a Jewish child, born in a stable in Bethlehem.

2. Jesus was not caught up to heaven as soon as He was born; but He was carried into Egypt. The sign child of our chapter was caught up to heaven as soon as it was born.

3. Jesus was born about sixty-nine years before this vision was given to John, which means that the birth described in Revelation 12 can have no reference to His birth in any sense.

4. Jesus' mother also fled into Egypt with her Babe; but when the man child was taken up to heaven, the woman fled into the wilderness alone. John saw the facts of Revelation twelve from the Day of the Lord; hence, he expressed them as past, though they are still future.

5. Both Jesus and His mother returned from Egypt after some months. But the man child is not seen returning from heaven, nor the woman from the wilderness.

6. Jesus went up to heaven, not as a child, but when He was thirty-three years old. The sign child goes to heaven as soon as it is born, while it is yet a child.

7. Mary was not in heaven - neither before, nor after, her Babe was born. The sign woman of our text chapter was first seen in heaven, then on earth also. There is not the slightest reference to Mary in this chapter.

8. We do not read that Mary cried with travail pain. No doubt, the birth of Jesus was lively and painless, as we read of the Hebrews in Exodus 1:19. This sign woman "cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."

9. Mary was not a great wonder woman, but a simple Jewish maiden attracting no special attention even after her Child was born.

10. Mary was not sun-clad, with the moon under her feet. She wore no crown of twelve stars. She was simply a favored Jewish woman, whom God chose to be the mother of the Messiah. But the wonder woman will be sun-clad, moon-honored, and star-crowned.

11. Immediately after the birth and ascension of the man child, war is seen in heaven; but we read of no war, neither in heaven nor on earth, at the birth of Jesus.

12 . Satan was expecting the birth of the man child; for he "Stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born." But the birth of Jesus was a surprise to Satan. He did not stir up Herod against Him until after His birth - after the wise men from the East has inquired of him where the Christ should be born. Next, let us note, that -

THE MANCHILD IS NOT THE CHURCH

Permit some preliminary remarks before discussing the subject. We consider that the fulfillment of Revelation from the fourth chapter to the nineteenth chapter will be within seven years, which is called a "week" in Daniel 9:27. The Old Testament prophets speak frequently and profusely of that time, calling it a period of judgment upon the world and of chastisement upon Israel. With this, the New Testament writers agree. That period is called "the hour of temptation (or trial), which will be world-wide, in Revelation 3:10; and, "great tribulation," in Revelation 7:14. This time of trial, or tribulation, must not be confounded with the "great tribulation" of Matthew 24:21, 29. This latter will be localized to Palestine, and refers to the Jews only. This is a very important distinction and must be observed. The hour of trial or time of tribulation, named in Revelation three and seven, will cover nearly the whole of the seven years of gloom and judgment; but the tribulation of Matthew twenty-four will cover less than the latter half of the seven years. This Gentile Age will close before that seven years of trial will begin. Those days will be the beginning of the Millennium. Because Jesus will be due to reign then; but the nations will refuse to acknowledge Him. They will be usurpers; therefore, His dire dealings with them in wrath will be absolutely just.

Exactly what time in that week of seven years will the man child be born? The answer to this question will help us greatly to determine his identity. Our text chapter contains the clue to the answer. Immediately after the birth of the man child we read of war in heaven between Michael and Satan, and the latter is hurled down to the earth. No doubt, that war will begin near the commencement of the seven years. Satan's descent to the earth will occur shortly before the middle of the week, because he must come down and empower and enthrone the antichrist who shall reign three and a half years - Rev. 13:5. Hence, the man child will be born a brief time - two hundred and fifty days - before the middle of the week of seven years.

Now we shall proceed to prove that the man child is not the church, nor the bride of Christ. The same facts prove both to be impossible.

1. He is only a child. But the Body of Christ must be fully developed and grown as a body. "For we being many are one bread, and one Body: for we are all partakers of that one bread" I Cor. 10:17. Adam, a type of Christ in mystery, was a full-grown man. The bride will be composed of full-grown saints. Christ will not marry a child company, nor any children in the Body. Eve was not a child, but a woman "builded" of a rib taken from the man - Genesis 2:22 margin. She is a type of the Bride of Christ - Ephesians 5:30-32.

2. The birth and ascension of the man child are too late in the seven years to represent either the Church or the Bride. "The fulness of the Gentiles" (Romans 11:25) is due to come in at the close of this age and before the "great tribulation" commences. Some of the Body of Christ - the Bride - must be in heaven when He sets up His throne there - Revelation four. These are full overcomers, who are due in heaven before that period of judgment arrives.

3. If the man child is the entire church, who are the overcomers of Revelation 3: 7-13? As plain as English can put it, we read that they shall be kept "from the hour of temptation". Jesus says, "Because thou hast kept the Word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." How will He keep them? By taking them up through the door which is open in heaven - Rev. 3:8. Certainly the Philadelphia saints will not be among that man child company. They will be off the scene about three years before the man child is born. If the man child is the entire church, then the
Philadelphia saints will be compelled to be translated after the week begins and taken out of the tribulation. But, Revelation 3:10 declares that they will not even dip into the tribulation of Revelation 7:14 from which the innumerable company will be taken.

4. If the man child is the whole church, who are the four living ones and the twenty four elders of Revelation four and five? Remember, John saw them in heaven long before he saw the sign child born. When he beheld the throne placed in heaven and One sitting upon it, he also saw those living ones and elders "in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne." You say that the living ones are Israel? No, not Israel, neither are they angels; for they themselves declare their identity, saying, "Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (over) the earth" - Rev. 5:9-10. They are Jew and Gentile believers. A critical study of this book shows that they will have a more intimate and responsible place in heaven than any other company. They will be very closely associated with the Lord in executing His will in heaven and on earth. Most certainly, they represent a very vital portion of the church, and will be in the glory many months before the man child will be born. We believe firmly that the Smyrna and Philadelphia saints - the overcomers of Revelation 2:8-11 and 3:7-13 - will be the living creatures and elders of Revelation four and five.

5. If the man child is the entire church, who are the innumerable company of Revelation 7:9-17?
John declares distinctly that, after seeing the living ones and elders in heaven, he saw that "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands." These are another company and have a different place, a lesser place, than those in Revelation four and five; but they will be in glory before the man child is born. Nothing can be clearer than this. Now who is that vast throng, if the man child is the church? If he is the entire church, then that great multitude is the larger part of the man child; which cannot be, if they are already in heaven when he is born. Someone replies that they are the tribulation saints; that they come out of the great tribulation after the church is in heaven. How unreasonable and unscriptural! That makes the greatest revival ever known take place during those days of darkness and sorrow. Instead, the repeated statement is that "they repented not" - Rev. (9:20-21; 16:9-11. If there should be a great revival then, none of them will get to heaven. Comparatively few will believe, which constitute the souls under the altar (Rev. 6 and 15) and the woman in the wilderness and her seed (Rev. 12:14, 17), The innumerable throng is the vast bulk of the church. The simplest most natural and reasonable way to view these different companies is as John has recorded them. The living ones and elders appear in heaven first; a little later, the innumerable multitude; and, finally, the man child. This is not farfetched, but most logical and harmonic.

6. If the man child is the church, whose is the "loud voice saying in heaven, now is come salvation, and strength, and the Kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night"?- Rev. 12:10. Is that not the voice of the four living ones and the twenty four elders whom we hear in the preceding chapters again and again, and of the vast throng of Revelation 7:9-17? Note Rev. 4:8-11; 5:8-10; 6:1-5: 7:13; 8:2, 7, 8, 12; 10:7. Who are those termed "our brethren," in Revelation 12:10? Of course, they are the man child, whoever he is; but, they are not the whole church, because two particular companies are seen in heaven before these arrive there and one or both of these two calls the third company "our brethren." For the same reason, they are not the bride of Christ.

7. If the man child is the whole church, who is the sign woman or mother of the sign child? Who is the mother of all the saints whom John saw in heaven, including the living ones and the elders and the countless throng? Solve this problem, please. Someone answers, "Israel." If that be true, then the child is vastly larger than his mother. When I was an urchin, a riddle was put to me. What is bigger than its mother? Vinegar was the answer. Most views of this chapter are vinegar interpretations sure enough. If Israel constitutes the mother entirely, how and when does she get to heaven. What is she doing in heaven anyway? I thought that Israel was God's earthly people! For the wonder woman is seen first in heaven. If the innumerable company of chapter seven will be saved during the tribulation days as some claim and, hence, be Jewish; then, like with vinegar, the mother is formed after the child is born. Do you see into what dense fog some interpreters land us? One fellow dares to say that the bride of the Lamb is the mother of the man child. This is almost too silly to be considered. The marriage of the Lamb and His bride will not take place until about two and a half years after the man child is born; and births are not considered legitimate until after marriage. Neither will the bride be on earth at that time nor afterward. The church is not a part of the bride; but the bride is a part of the church. She is a rib company, divinely taken out of the church and builded into a bride.

The man child cannot be the bride of the lamb. We have already given some reasons against it. Here is the chief reason. The bride company is due in heaven before "the week" of judgment, the seven years "hour of temptation" (trial, or tribulation), begins. Who should be the first to meet the Lord in the air, if not the bride? Who can more fittingly represent the bride group than the Philadelphia overcomers? To them are made two unique promises: First: "I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and has kept My Word, and hast not denied My Name"- Rev. 3:8. Second: "Because thou hast kept the Word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" - Rev. 3:10. That no one may mistake our Lord's meaning, the next verse adds, "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." The Philadelphia saints, the overcoming bride rank, will be caught away into heaven without any travail pain. Walking now as "the children (sons) of light, and the children (sons) of the day," and being awake, watchful, and sober, they will depart to glory while it is yet day before the night and darkness and "sudden destruction" shall arrive. Consider very carefully these verses - "When they are saying, "Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall in no wise escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief: for ye are all sons of light, and sons of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep, as do the rest, but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep in the night; and they that are drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, since we are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation" - I Thess. 5:3-8 Revised Version. If the man child were the bride group, his birth would take place before the period which is called "darkness and ... gloominess," "the hour of temptation," and "travail." Instead, it is clear that he is born near the middle of that period, and just before Satan is ejected from heaven. The man child is of Israel, as we shall certainly see.

WHO ARE THE 144,000

It is claimed by some that the 144,000 represent the bride of Lamb. This, too, is very unscriptural and unreasonable. They are wholly of Israel - 12,000 being taken out of each of the twelve tribes of Israel - Rev. 7:4-8. In Rev. 14:1-5 we see them in heaven "before the throne, and before the four beasts (living ones), and the elders." Observe that the living ones and elders are nearer the throne than the 144,000. They are "the firstfruits (of Israel) unto God and to the Lamb." See Jeremiah 2:3 and James 1:18. Their song is the song of Moses, because they are not of "every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" like those recorded in Revelation four and five and 7:9-17. They "follow the Lamb" - 14:4. They cannot be the bride; for a real bride does not follow her husband, but moves by his side as one with him. The 144,000 cannot be the bride company, because they are not seen in heaven until near the middle of the week of seven years; while the living ones and elders and the innumerable company are there long before - Revelation four, five, and seven. The living ones assist in the very activities of those seven years.

THE WONDER WOMAN

Before we identify the wonder child, let us consider his mother - the wonder woman. Jerusalem, representing Israel, is likened to a woman in Isaiah 54:6 - "For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou was refused, saith thy God. "The church is compared to a woman in II Corinthians 11:2 - "I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ, " said the apostle Paul. Hence, we believe that this sign woman figures a vast company of God's people. All those who scripturally believe the gospel "are the children of Abraham" and constitute "the household of faith" - Galatians 3:7; 6:10. These include believers before Christ came and since He came. These are called "the household of God" and "the whole family in heaven and earth" - Ephesians 2:19; 3:15;
4:12. Believers on Jesus during this age are called out to His Name and constitute "the body," or church of Christ, or "My church," as Jesus said - Matthew 16:18. Observe who will be in heaven when the man child is born. Enoch and Elijah and Moses are already there. Many Old Testament saints, whose bodies came out of the graves when Christ was raised and appeared to people in Jerusalem, are also there - Matthew 27:52-53. They obtained "a better resurrection," and are "just men made perfect"; that is, they have glorified bodies - Hebrews 11:35; 12:23. The living ones and twenty four elders, representing the Philadelphia overcomers, will be there - Revelation four and five. They are likely the "ten thousands of His saints," which Enoch saw - Jude 14. The great multitude of Revelation 7:9-17 will be in heaven then. All these individuals and groups of believers, Old Testament and New Testament saints, will form the great wonder woman in heaven or "the whole family in heaven" - Ephesians 3:15.

The dazzling raiment of the woman indicates this interpretation. She is clothed with the sun, adorned by the moon, and crowned with stars. All the glorified saints in heaven at that moment will constitute the sign woman, even as an entire assembly on earth is often called "a mother assembly." Though the majority of the members of an assembly be babes and children, yet its full-grown and spiritual members give it the character of a mother. Certain individuals, by their constant and bright shining, crown it with splendor and honor. With this simple illustration before us, let us look closely at the woman's regalia.

She is "clothed with the sun," the beauty and character of Christ and His bride - the mystical Christ. In Malachi 4:2, our Lord is termed "the sun of righteousness"; and all believers "have put on Christ" - Galatians 3:27. Clothing speaks of character, station, and wealth, as well as of adornment. As Jesus Anointed is the bright array of individual believers, indicating their high position and righteous nature, so Christ and those saints whose bodies shall "be conformed (fashioned) to the body of His glory" will invest the sign woman with heavenly luster and splendor - Philippians 3:21. They will co-operate with Jesus to finish the resurrection and translation of the saints. The interest of the glorified will be so deep, and the tension so great, and the activities so untiring during the first part of those seven years, that we read of "silence in heaven" for only half an hour - Revelation 8:1. Satan and apostatized Christendom will strive to the uttermost to keep the man child company from being translated.

Who is the man child? You have waited long for the answer. We believe that the 144,000 of Revelation seven and fourteen are that very man child. Isaiah gives us the clue to the answer, for he also speaks of the same "man child" - Isaiah 66:5-9. He exclaims. "Hear the Word of the Lord, ye that tremble at His Word .. a voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the Lord that rendereth recompense to His enemies. Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of man child." The fact that Isaiah wrote of the birth of a man child is proof positive that the man child is of Israel, and not Gentile at all. Someone may object to them being the same, because the one which Isaiah saw was born without any travail pain but the one which John records was with great pain. Remember, that Isaiah wrote only of kingdom matters. He knew nothing of the church whose sphere is world-wide. He was concerned for the Jews then gathered into and around Jerusalem. John saw the wonder woman in heaven and on earth; but Isaiah saw only God's chosen people Israel, and as related to the promised land. He had no vision of the activities which shall then obtain in heaven, and of the travail pain of the sign woman that takes place in heaven.

Whatever the terrible conditions that will obtain on earth generally then, Isaiah was occupied only with the "great tribulation" of nearly three years duration which will engulf the Jews in Palestine - Matthew 24:15-21. It is well known among them as "Jacob's trouble" and "the indignation" - Jeremiah 30:7; Isaiah 26:20. It is a part of the forty two months of treading under foot of Jerusalem by the Gentiles - Revelation 11:2 The travail pain of Zion of which Isaiah speaks here refers directly to that time of tribulation, trouble, or indignation. That was all the travail he beheld; and yet, he beheld with astonishment a birth, a brief time before. Zechariah records that "in that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem," because of the iron heel of the nations gathered around her - Zechariah 12:11; 14:1-2. Moved by the out-poured "Spirit of grace and of supplications," the Jews will cry out to God for deliverance. As a result, Isaiah in amazement exclaims, "Shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children" - Isaiah 66:8. But that birth will occur nearly three years after the birth of the man child. Thus, there will be two births distinct from each other.

The time of the birth of the "man child" and that of Zion's "children" also proves that the man child of Isaiah's prophecy and that of John's are identical. Both Isaiah and John wrote of the period in which Jehovah shall deliver His people Israel. They both wrote concerning Israel. To Isaiah, the identity of the mother of the man child is veiled. He says only "Before she travailed, she brought forth," without stating who "she" is: but he shows plainly that Zion is the mother of "her children"-Isaiah 66:7-8. It was left for John to tell who "she" is, even the wonder woman, as "a great wonder in heaven" - because the same woman should be seen first in heaven, then later on earth. In heaven, she is partly Jewish and partly Gentile, including all the glorified saints. But on earth, she is Israel, at least what Isaiah saw of her; for he saw her in Palestine only. John saw her also on earth, as the woman in the wilderness; that is, in the world. This may include gentile believers also, who will accept Christ in that troublous time.

Evidently, the 144,000 constitute the man child. It is clear that Revelation seven and fourteen refer to Israel. The sealing of Israel is recorded in Revelation seven. Their showing in heaven is recorded in chapter fourteen. Is it not significant that the birth of the man child should occur between these two events? It is most natural and logical that the 144,000 should reach heaven as the birth of the man child. The sturdy character of both indicates that they are identical. The sign child is termed "a man child," literally, "a manly strong son." The different expressions mean that the wonder offspring is unusually strong, vigorous, robust, and imposing, though called a "child." The company "our brethren" (named in Rev. 12:10-11), which answers thereto, is of the same sturdy nature. By faith in the blood of the Lamb which will mean much in that awful time and by their bold testimony, they overcame Satan who will stir heaven, hell, and earth against them. They will be in great jeopardy; but "they loved not their lives unto the death"- Rev, 12:11. They will be manly, strong, and bold. The purity, devotion, and strength of the 144,000 agree with the above.

THE APOSTOLIC DYNAMITE

The apostles were men of unique courage, endurance, faith, and spiritual power. They wrought mighty miracles, signs, and wonders. Their equal has not been witnessed since Paul's day- II Corinthians 12:11-12. They suffered reproach, imprisonment, and finally death for their untiring zeal. We have no record that they grew up into the full matured stature of men in Christ Jesus according to Paul's gospel; but their might in Christ and for Him was phenomenal. The phrase "a man child," or literally "a manly son," describes them exactly. They were all Israelites, termed "the twelve apostles of the Lamb" - Rev. 21:14. They will not be the foundations of the wall of the city. Neither were the apostles organized or incorporated. They were simply joined, or added, to the Lord - Acts 5:13-14; 11:24.

Exactly so will be the unbending character and faith and the unique power of the man child company, the 144,000. Bear in mind, that the apostles' career filled out the last of the "seventy weeks...determined" upon Daniel's people Israel. Six determined blessings crowned that week of seven years, which should have been the opening of the Millennium if the Jews had accepted Christ the Blesser. How fitting then that the same sort of men with similar zeal, self- sacrifice, and dynamite, should introduce the new age and link the King with heaven and earth. They will be caught up to the throne and attend His wedding on high.

Birth means the coming into view of one actually alive some time before. The 144,000 are sealed a considerable time prior to the birth of the man child. It may be know to God only that they are of Israel, because they are reckoned as a part of the Church. We believe that they are the wise virgins of Matthew twenty-five, because they are called "virgins" in Revelation 14:4. Hence, "at midnight (the middle of the week) there is a cry, if not the "two witnesses" of Revelation eleven? For they will be on duty during those days. Satan knows that the 144,000 virgin believers hope to be translated, even as the vision declares - "The dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born" - Rev. 12:4. He will hinder, if possible, their translation. That will occasion the travail of the wonder woman in Heaven. We may think people persecute us now because of our experience of Pentecost. But, ah! During those days of man's stout rebellion, with the bulk of the Church in glory, saints will do some believing to keep things afloat. So terrible will be the time, that the foolish virgins will have to "buy" oil. That is, with great difficulty they will receive the Spirit, but will miss the translation. Is it any wonder that the redeemed host in Heaven will be in travail for the deliverance of the wise virgins, the 144,000? While the devil is moving men against them on earth, he is resisting Michael who engages to cast him out of Heaven.

THE 144,000 IN HEAVEN

The description of the 144,000 (Rev. 14:1-5) corresponds with these facts. They "were not defiled with women"; that is, they are not sectarian. "Women" here means religious organizations. "They are virgins"; that is, they have no earthly head or lord. Beyond doubt, they are the wise virgins of Matthew twenty-five, who have "oil in their vessels with their lamps." They are anointed, or sealed, with the Holy Spirit. "They ... follow the Lamb," which further explains their chastity and separation. The same virgins thus also follow the bride - Psalm 45:14. Theirs is a life of sacrifice and suffering, because Jesus alone is their official Head and Lord. It will be no small item to be wholly separated unto Christ in that day, when apostatized Christendom will be one gigantic corporation. It is so difficult now, that few saints can endure to be outside of organizations. How much worse it will be then!

The 144,000 are "the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb"; that is, the fruits of Israel. See Jeremiah 2:3. Also, James said to Israel, "Of His own will begat He us with the Word of Truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures' - James 1:18. Such the Hebrew Christians were at the beginning of this age. Likewise, the 144,000 will be the firstfruits of Israel at the opening of the next age. Hebrew believers were the link between the kingdom and the church at the first. Likewise, these will be the link presently between the church and kingdom. Believers on Jesus in Israel form the nucleus of the church when He went away; and Israelite believers in Christendom will form the nucleus of the kingdom when He is about to return. God sees them as Israel and seals them; that is, anoints them with the Holy Spirit. Lastly, "they are without fault before the throne of God." This agrees with the words about the man child, that he is "caught up unto God, and to His throne." But neither one is said to be "in the midst of the throne," as is said of the living creatures - Rev. 4:6. The living creatures and elders are nearer the throne than the 144,000; hence, the latter cannot be the bride of the Lamb. The man child "was to rule all nations with a rod of iron." The promise to rule the nations is given to the overcomer in the church of Thyatira - Rev. 2:26-27. God said to His Son, "Thou shalt break them (the nations) with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel" - Psalm 2:9. This promise includes the entire church, or body of Christ; hence, it is made to Thyatira overcomers also. Paul asks saying, Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? ... "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?" - I Cor. 6:2-3. All who are members of the body of Christ will reign with Him in some measure; but, certain ones will reign in much closer fellowship with Him than others, even as they walk in more intimate communion with Him now. The man child will rule with Christ in a higher sense than some others in the church. Study Revelation 21:12-24. There we see the 144,000 as the wall of the holy city. Note, also, the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. "He measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel." Let no one think that the wall will be built of brick and mortar, man's products; but of "living stones" - I Peter 2:5 Revised Version. Saints will not simply be in that city. They will constitute the city. Likewise, saints will constitute the wall around the city. Now observe, that "the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it." Thus we see in what sense the man child, the 144,000, will rule the nations. We submit this interpretation of the man child to every honest student of God's Word, as the simplest and most in harmony with the rest of the scriptures. I beg of you not to discard it and decry it, until you have investigated it thoroughly from A to Z.
All here stated in the name of the Lord Jesus hopefully to God's glory - larry

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Re: THE MAN CHILD

Post by James4_14 » Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:07 am

The woman, the red dragon, the child of the woman, Michael (the archangel), the dragon persecutes the woman and the remnant of Israel are the subjects of this chapter.

This is for the nation Israel. The church has already been raptured out!! If NOT please show me where the Rapture takes place other than chapter four of this tremendous book.
REMEMBER!! The church has its OWN tribulation till the Rapture and ISRAEL is reserved for DOUBLE punishment!!

Isa 40:1-2
1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins.

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

This verse leads into chapter 12 to show the nation Israel is the subject matter. Temples are NOT associated with the church in ANY way except for the temple of the body of believers.

:arwrt The ENTIRE book of Revelation revolves around this chapter. The ENTIRE book of Revelation is the unveiling of Jesus and we must NOT lose sight of Him ANYWHERE in this book.

Rev 12
*1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

:arwrt The woman is the nation Israel as seen in Joseph’s dream. This was a sign in Heaven but concerned events on the Earth. This is NOT a literal woman.

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
Gen 37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?


Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

:arwrt “Unto us a child is born”. “Us”=Israel.
And the “ child” spoke of Christ NOT as saviour, but as the KING and head of government BEFORE the resurrection. This verse (Isaiah 9:6) has NOTHING to do with the church, but Israel. The church was NOT in the Old Testament

Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Rom 9:4-5
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

John 4:9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Christ was born in Bethlehem but came out of eternity.

*2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Mic 5:3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

Isa 66:7-8
7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

:arwrt [There has to be born a Son first (Christ as King)]

This is the Great Tribulation period and the “children” are the remnant of Israel.

*3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
*4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. (Verse 9 identifies dragon as satan)

The dragon was red (murderer) and “dragon” is his vicious character).

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Seven heads are wisdom.
Ezek 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Ten horns. Final division of the roman empire.

Crowns are kingly authority

*5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Ps 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Rom 9:4-5
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Gal 4:4-5
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

:arwrt Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Verse 5 also speaks of His ascension into Heaven after the Resurrection.

*6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Matt 24:16-20
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

This is Remnant fleeing to mountains for protection and I dare say there will be manna from Heaven and that Rock of Christ springing forth water for them to drink. This is the last three and one half years of the Tribulation.

*7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
*8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
*9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
*10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
*11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
*12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

NOTICE!! “Woe to the inhabiters of the earth”. Does NOT say EXCEPT for the church. That would be Jews and Gentiles.

Col 2:14-15
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

*13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
*14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The last wave of anti-Semitism. The time of Jacob’s trouble.

“Two wings”. The Grace of God.
Ex 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

Matt 24:16-20
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

*15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
*16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
*17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Acts 28 Believer

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Re: THE MAN CHILD

Post by larry » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:17 am

Quoting James4_14 - This is for the nation Israel. The church has already been raptured out!! If NOT please show me where the Rapture takes place other than chapter four of this tremendous book.

Response - Brother James, this is going to be an explanation foreign to your present thinking - Hope to can tolerate my explanation. If you cannot see this you have not hurt me at all and we will remain brethren in fellowship with one another.

I do not know your background, but dispensations plays a big part in prophesy. If you're familiar with the judgment seat of Christ you realize we're being judged at this present time as Jesus is seen in the midst of the candlesticks in Revelation 1:13, and He is judging the Church as He describes the different things He observes wrong with the seven different churches described in Revelation Chapters 2 and 3.

When the apostle John is caught forward from the isle of Patmos to the Lord's Day, it is the time of the beginning of the seven years of tribulation when Jesus will take His own throne in Revelation 4:2.

John at that point of time hears a voice as of a trumpet behind him; he was looking forward but now looks back over this present age or dispensation we're living in and describes conditions that the Lord is describing to him. We'll call this vision point one. In Revelation 1:19 John is to "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter."

In Revelation Chapters 2 and 3 we see five churches described as needing to repent, and two churches without fault. All repenting must be here while on earth; in heaven there will be no correction. We must then ask who they are, when it will take place, and when will the seven different churches be taken to heaven.

Quoting James4_14 - REMEMBER!! The church has its OWN tribulation till the Rapture and ISRAEL is reserved for DOUBLE punishment!!

Response - Good observation though I plan on showing that the seven years of tribulation is divided into two parts of three and one-half years. The first three and one half years is the great temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth that we find in Revelation 3:10.

The second three and one-half years of the tribulation is called the great tribulation described in Matthew 24:21. "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." This time is also known as Jacob's trouble in Jeremiah 30:7. "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it."

Daniel 9:27. "And he (The antichrist) shall confirm the covenant with many (Israel) for one week (actually 30 days prior to the start of the seven years of tribulation - Daniel 12:11): and in the midst of the week (Start of the second three and one-half years) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Okay, let's skip to the start of the raptures, and other than replies demanding it, I will not go into an exhaustive explanation of all of Revelation. At this point I want to proceed to vision point two. In Revelation 4:1 we see John in Spirit and Jesus tells him to "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." Again this is the beginning of the seven years of tribulation.

In Revelation 4:2 we see a throne set in heaven. Who can this throne be for? It is for Jesus. "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." Previous to this Jesus was at the right hand of His Father as our advocate, and He also walked among the candlesticks judging the churches.

Well there are some around the throne at this time in Revelation 4:4 called the four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. And then another group there in the midst of the throne is the four beasts in Revelation 4:6. Ezekiel also sees this company of saints and describes them as living creatures. Ezekiel 1:5. "Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man."

Who are these elders and living creatures? Revelation 5:9-10 gives us the answer. 9 "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." Jesus describes them as redeemed saints out of every tongue, and people, and nation.

Now let's go back to the church of Smyrna in Revelation 2:10. "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." These represent those that are asleep that rise first according to 1 Thessalonians 4:16, and then let's go to the Philadelphia Church in Revelation 3:10 where they're told "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. This church is to be kept from the hour of temptation meaning they are alive at the start of the tribulation and are kept from it. They are Pre-tribulation raptured and are caught up unto God. We see them as the four living creatures or beasts in the midst of Christ's throne in Revelation 4:2. Also note that this church has a crown also in Revelation 3:11 as do the Smyrna Church in Revelation 2:10. There are only two groups of the seven churches that are said to have crowns. Again the remaining five churches are all told to repent.

In the interpretation of Revelation 3:10 the NIV says: "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, the NKJV says "Because you have kept My command to persevere," the NRSV says "Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, and WEY says " Because in spite of suffering you have guarded My word," and I like this among the best because it fits with Romans 8:17 so clearly. "And if children, then heirs (All of God's children are heirs); heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; IF so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. There is the condition of suffering, or patiently enduring attached to being in the assembly that is kept from tribulation.

Next let's examine the tribulation saints of Revelation 7:9. "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands." These didn't have crowns, they have palms. Now the different churches told to repent receive the following messages.

Ephesus - Revelation 2:4-5. "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." They may have been first in rank and now are told that they may be removed from that place much like the ranking of the tribes of Israel upon Aaron's Ephod and the Breastplate of Righteousness had different marching order when judged.

Thyatira - Revelation 2:21-22. "And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds." Here they're told they will go into tribulation.

Sardis - Revelation 3:2-3. "Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." Sounds as if they may miss the Pre-tribulation rapture.

Laodiceans - Revelation 3:15-16, 19. "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." This is the resulting deterioration of the Church, and they will certainly not be with Christ as He will spue them out. He ever holds out grace to them in inviting them in. Revelation 3:20. "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

These saints will go through a portion of the first three and one-half years of the tribulation as they are seen by John in heaven later than the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures who are with Jesus when He takes His own throne. Revelation 7:13. "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them." These are also not kings and priests as those first to be raptured. They are also not in the midst of the throne, but out before it and they are servants.

Quoting James4_14 - Rev 12
*1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

The woman is the nation Israel as seen in Joseph’s dream. This was a sign in Heaven but concerned events on the Earth. This is NOT a literal woman.

Response - You are correct. The woman is seen in heaven and on the earth representing the whole family of God. For those not familiar with this, please read the thread titled "The Man Child" on this forum.

Last of all for this thread I will comment now on the last group to be caught up unto God before the middle of the seven years of tribulation. In Revelation 12:5 we see the Man Child born to a wonder woman. "And she (The woman) brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days (three and one-half years)." God protects the saints left for the remaining three and one-half years while near the entire world is caught up in war especially around Palestine and Israel.

Where is Satan at this time? He is cast out to the earth with his angels in this chapter and they attempt to persecute the woman, but she is given a place of safety for the last three and one-half years of the tribulation; Revelation 12:14.

Now we must go to Revelation 14:1 to see who these last to be caught up into heaven are. 1 "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads." These are the same ones sealed 12,000 of each tribe of Israel back in Revelation 7:4-8.

Revelation 14:3-4. "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." Notice their place in heaven is before the throne; not around and in the midst of the throne. You might just make a note of that written in Revelation 14:13. "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth." There will be tribulation occurring after the 144,000 are gone into heaven.

Last I want to bring out the fact of when the 144,000 are caught up into heaven. To determine this we must know who they are. One thing about them is that they are virgins, and we can see them described in Matthew below.

Matthew Chapter 25 - Notice the time of the marriage of the Lamb is at midnight in Matthew 25:6, 10.( Again the middle of the seven years of tribulation). Thus the wise virgins enter into heaven prior to the middle of the week.

1 ¶ Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

I will here state that the 144,000 caught up unto God are those of Isaiah 66:8. "Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children."

Dear Brother James, this was just the tip of the depths of what God has in store for us if we want it, and I did not want to confuse you more than I may have already done. To boil it down somewhat, is all the Church the Bride? No, she will not be a servant as the tribulation saints, but a joint heir with Christ. One last portion of scripture I want to leave you.

2 Timothy 2:11-12. "It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:" All Christians will live with Christ, BUT -
12 "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:" What will Jesus deny us of? The right to rule and reign with Him if we do not allow Him to work as He will in our lives.

Thanks for replying in Jesus' name, and if I have omitted something you asked, please restate it - larry
All here stated in the name of the Lord Jesus hopefully to God's glory - larry

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Re: THE MAN CHILD

Post by everready » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:53 pm

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Needless to say this isn't a pop question, thanks Larry for the post this should be an
interesting study.

Jude

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Isaiah 26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.

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Re: THE MAN CHILD

Post by crosswalk » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:24 pm

Larry,
A.S. Copley? :shrug: I'm not sure where you found this guy but you should send him back. The general flow and the way he seems to take Revelation appears that he has not yet realized how the book is put together.

" She is a wonder woman," :shrug: Where does it say that? "... a great wonder (sign) in heaven;..." She is one of the signs in heaven. To turn around and use the word wonder to describe the women shows he is already twisting things before he even gets started.

"2. Jesus was not caught up to heaven as soon as He was born; but He was carried into Egypt. The sign child of our chapter was caught up to heaven as soon as it was born."

Where does it say that? There is nothing in this verse that indicates it was immediate. I am still my mothers child and I am not straight out of the womb.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

This guy is added things as he goes. and applying conjectures, (big ones)

"7. Mary was not in heaven"

Hello...It is not Mary that is for sure. But it is the "sign" that appeared in heaven not what it represents. A sign points to something. People do not spread their picnic lunch in front of the sign to the beach.

I am sorry but I simply could not finish the article for all the references to "wonder child" and "wonder women" Revelation is not a comic book.

Surely you do not base what you believe Revelation Chapter 12 on what this guy says.

Anyway...in your own words would you state what YOU believe. The short version.

:harp

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Re: THE MAN CHILD

Post by everready » Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:56 am

Hi Larry, I've been acquainted with bible Prophecy for some time and
I've yet to hear this doctrine. To make a statement that the Revelation
isn't spot on is curious if not just plain dangerous, I've not heard of
A.S. Copley, but I do know the Revelation has something to say.

Chapter 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.


Jude

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Isaiah 26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.

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Re: THE MAN CHILD

Post by larry » Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:48 am

Dear Brother Jude, thanks for your reply.

Quoting Jude - To make a statement that the Revelation isn't spot on is curious if not just plain dangerous.

Response - I'm not quite sure what statement you are referring to. Please state it and thanks in Jesus -
All here stated in the name of the Lord Jesus hopefully to God's glory - larry

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Re: THE MAN CHILD

Post by everready » Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:08 pm

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Dear Brother Larry it is this paragraph I'm talking about.

Read the twelfth chapter of Revelation. You can almost understand it, by reading it through. There may be different applications of some portions of Scripture; but there can be only one interpretation of any portion. Therefore, most of the interpretations of this chapter are incorrect and out of harmony with the rest of the Word of God. My discourse on this subject will fall into two parts - First: Who this man child is not. Second: Who he really is. The book of Revelation was written about 69 AD. The first verse declares that its contents should come to pass after that date. Bear this in mind in studying this twelfth chapter.


Jude

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Isaiah 26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.

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Re: THE MAN CHILD

Post by larry » Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:38 pm

Dear Brother Jude, I believe that the following excerpts are what you object to if I'm not mistaken.

Quote - Therefore, most of the interpretations of this chapter are incorrect and out of harmony with the rest of the Word of God.

Response - Brother Copley did not say that Revelation Chapter 12 is out of harmony with the Bible, but most interpretations of it are.

Quote - The book of Revelation was written about 69 AD. The first verse (Of Revelation 1:1) declares that its contents should come to pass after that date. Bear this in mind in studying this twelfth chapter.

Response - The purpose of Brother Copley was to refute the interpretation that many have that the Man Child was Jesus Who was already born prior to the things written in Revelation Chapter 12 to make it is clear that Jesus is not the man child

Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John."

If this did not help, please let me know and thanks -

in Jesus' name - larry
All here stated in the name of the Lord Jesus hopefully to God's glory - larry

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Re: THE MAN CHILD

Post by crosswalk » Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:42 pm

3. Jesus was born about sixty-nine years before this vision was given to John, which means that the birth described in Revelation 12 can have no reference to His birth in any sense because of what Rev 1:1 says.


Sure it can.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

If you tell someone that you are about to show them future events, does that mean that you can in noway use past events in your description to help you better understand the meaning of what was being told to you. Even your brother Copley presented statements before he made his point. Please to use this flimsy statement to support a conclusion that one has come to is grasping at straws.

With that said these scriptures are much easier to understand. Why confuse the scriptures. Brother Copley seems to be way out in left field on his very understanding oF how the book of Revelation is written. He needs to clear his mind and start over. He seems to have messed it this go around.

Love you in Christ,

:bls

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