THE MAN CHILD

A place to discuss issues related to the end times and Bible prohecy.

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sawdust
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Re: THE MAN CHILD

Post by sawdust » Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:33 am

Not sure exactly how you have come to this interpretation Larry but it seems like a little too much thinking has gone into it. ;-)

The woman clothed with the "sun, moon and stars" has it's reference in Genesis 37:9&10

Joseph had a dream and when he told his father, Jacob gives us it's meaning in his response. The sun represents Jacob, the moon represents his wives and the stars represent his twelve sons.

Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. "Listen," he said, "I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me." 10 When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, "What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?"

The woman has Jacob as her head (the sun), his wives (the moon under her feet) and his twelve sons who formed the twelve tribes of Israel (crown with twelve stars). The woman represents Israel.

The child that is born we are told "will rule all the nations with an iron scepter".

She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. Rev.12:5

This is a direct reference to Psalm 2:9.

You will rule them with an iron scepter; you will dash them to pieces like pottery."

This psalm is clearly a reference to the Messiah, who we know today is Jesus Christ.

Chapter 12 of Revelation is like the opening credits in a movie. It is introducing us to the main characters in the story of the tribulation that is to come.

John wrote about what is now and what is to come. Not every word in Revelation is in reference to a future event.

"Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. Rev.1:19

peace
When your words came, I ate them; they were my joy and my heart's delight, for I bear your name, O LORD God Almighty. Jer.15:16

larry
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Re: THE MAN CHILD

Post by larry » Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:16 am

Dear Sawdust, using the verse you quoted - Revelation 1:19. "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter."

Response - In writing of things which John had seen, did he personally ever see the birth of Christ? Was he at this time given that vision? Or does the things which shall be hereafter told him by Jesus in Revelation 1:1 have any relevance at all? Do you really believe the events of Revelation Chapter 12 point back to Jesus' birth even after in Revelation 4:1 John receives a further invitation to view more things that will be hereafter, and we see Jesus sitting upon His own throne in Revelation 4:2?

Thanks in Jesus
All here stated in the name of the Lord Jesus hopefully to God's glory - larry

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Re: THE MAN CHILD

Post by larry » Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:42 am

Dear Crosswalk, I will in my best behavior attempt to address you with respect in my answers to you. I will not produce attitude or words condemning your thinking on the subject, and will also try to stay in context of the scripture.

Quoting Crosswalk - " She is a wonder woman," Where does it say that?

Response - The wonder appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun. You can make fun of his language on this if you want to, but the idea he was attempting to make was that she was not just an earthly woman such as Mary if you will allow him that.

Quoting Copley - Jesus was not caught up to heaven as soon as He was born; but He was carried into Egypt. The sign child of our chapter was caught up to heaven as soon as it was born."

Quoting Crossover - Where does it say that? There is nothing in this verse that indicates it was immediate. I am still my mothers child and I am not straight out of the womb.

Response - Matthew 2:13. And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
There is absolutely nothing said here to indicate there was any delay in delivering the man child from the dragon standing before the woman to devour her child.

Revelation 12:2. And she (The woman) being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Revelation 12:3. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Does this sound like the prophesy of Daniel concerning the end times? Is this chapter suddenly split from the time of the tribulation back to the birth of Jesus?

Revelation 12:4. And his tail (The dragon Satan) drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
If Satan had known Jesus was being born, don't you think he would have also stood before Mary to devour Him? Why did it take two years before prior to attempting to kill Jesus?

Quoting Copley - The sign child of our chapter was caught up to heaven as soon as it was born."

Quoting Crosswalk - Where does it say that? There is nothing in this verse that indicates it was immediate. I am still my mothers child and I am not straight out of the womb.

Response - Revelation 12:5-6. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

I will agree that the word immediately does not appear, but it's strange that the woman fled unto the wilderness for three and one-half years after giving birth to him in Verse 6 below. That doesn't sound like Mary to me.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Revelation 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Since this chapter occurs during the tribulation, is it safe to assume that the woman here is that of Revelation 12:13-14
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Again we see that this is that same three and one-half remaining years of the tribulation.

Thank you in Jesus' name - larry

Dear Sawdust - I answered your reply one up from this one - thanks
All here stated in the name of the Lord Jesus hopefully to God's glory - larry

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Re: THE MAN CHILD

Post by sawdust » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:00 pm

larry wrote:Dear Sawdust, using the verse you quoted - Revelation 1:19. "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter."

Response - In writing of things which John had seen, did he personally ever see the birth of Christ? Was he at this time given that vision? Or does the things which shall be hereafter told him by Jesus in Revelation 1:1 have any relevance at all? Do you really believe the events of Revelation Chapter 12 point back to Jesus' birth even after in Revelation 4:1 John receives a further invitation to view more things that will be hereafter, and we see Jesus sitting upon His own throne in Revelation 4:2?

Thanks in Jesus


The short answer to your question is ... yes. :-)

John is told to write the things he has seen. To write the things that are. And to write the things that are yet to happen. Our two signs of chapter 12 fall into the category of "the things that are".

John didn't have to be a personal witness to the birth of Christ. He's not talking about being a personal witness to the birth of Christ or any earthly event. He is talking about seeing two signs in heaven, one of them, a woman. That woman gives birth to a child. That child is said to be caught up to heaven (doesn't say immediately after he was born either). We are told the Child is kept from the devouring Dragon. We are told the Child will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. Now, how many children do you expect to be born into this world who will be resurrected without ever having been touched by the Dragon and will rule all the nations with an iron scepter?

Anyone reading John's words who knew the OT prophecies would have immediately recognised that child as the Messiah when he said about ruling all the nations with an iron scepter. (Psalm 2)

Larry? I mean no disrespect but you are trying to do what Jesus warned about.
You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. Matt.23:24

You are trying to argue the child born in chapter 12 can't be Jesus because John is told to write about what is to come and at the time John is writing, Christ's birth is a past event. But you ignore the the strict Messianic reference (Psalm 2). You ignore John was seeing two signs in heaven. He's not talking about seeing historical events as they happened on the earth.

The very argument you are trying to use to say the child is not Christ, if applied to the 144,000, wouldn't hold up either. Are they going to be snatched up to heaven the moment they are born?

I think you are trying too hard with this one. The sign of the woman represents Israel. The child she gives birth to is the Messiah. The sign of the Dragon represents Satan's hatred for Christ and all the things of God and Satan's desire to destroy them.

peace
When your words came, I ate them; they were my joy and my heart's delight, for I bear your name, O LORD God Almighty. Jer.15:16

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Re: THE MAN CHILD

Post by larry » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:43 pm

Quoting Sawdust - Larry? I mean no disrespect but you are trying to do what Jesus warned about.
You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. Matt.23:24

Response - I have no idea how something relating to the scribes, Pharisees, and the law has to do with this thread. I'm very sorry you feel that anyone disagreeing with you is cause for a statement like you gave above.

I will add that the power to rule the nations with a rod of iron is given to those overcomers of the Thyatira Church in Revelation 2:26-27, and it is Jesus granting that power. It's just my thinking on this part; why Thyatira? In Revelation 2:22 Thyatira is shown entering into great tribulation.

Peace to you also in the name of Jesus - larry
All here stated in the name of the Lord Jesus hopefully to God's glory - larry

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Re: THE MAN CHILD

Post by sawdust » Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:29 am

larry wrote:Quoting Sawdust - Larry? I mean no disrespect but you are trying to do what Jesus warned about.
You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. Matt.23:24

Response - I have no idea how something relating to the scribes, Pharisees, and the law has to do with this thread. I'm very sorry you feel that anyone disagreeing with you is cause for a statement like you gave above.

I will add that the power to rule the nations with a rod of iron is given to those overcomers of the Thyatira Church in Revelation 2:26-27, and it is Jesus granting that power. It's just my thinking on this part; why Thyatira? In Revelation 2:22 Thyatira is shown entering into great tribulation.

Peace to you also in the name of Jesus - larry


It has to do with the way you are trying to construct your argument. Whether we agree or not has nothing to do with it. As best as I can tell from your opening posts (and I have to admit I found some of the things you were saying rather convoluted), you are saying the child born cannot be the Messiah because that is a past event and John is talking about the future. You are picking up on this tiny thing of timing while ignoring the larger context. This is similar to what the Pharisees use to do. They would pick up on one tiny point of Law and build mountains of rules and regulations out of it and declare it to be the truth. All the while ignoring the larger context of what was written. My quarrel is with the construct of your argument not with you. If you are going to apply the argument, the birth of the child is future, then you must also apply the sign of the woman and dragon as being something future. Yet, if memory serves me correctly, you said the woman represents all believers. Are all believers future only? Or do the majority of believers have their roots in the past. Is the devouring nature of the dragon future only? Or do we see his persecution in the past as well.

John is not saying he is witnessing to events as they are unfolding (or even will unfold) in this chapter. He begins by telling us of seeing "two signs in heaven".

These are signs pointing to someone. The earthly events applicable to the woman who gives birth has roots in the past, the present and the future.

As for Thyatira? John is speaking to the Church and is referencing the promises made to the Church. These are not the same promises made to the nation Israel. There has only been one Israelite given the promise to rule the nations and I don't think I need to spell it out who that One is. :-)

You also might want to re-read the letter. The tribulation they will experience? Is not the persecution that comes from the Devil but is the tribulation that comes from getting your bottom spanked by the Lord for being disobedient children. It even states those who have not taken in false doctrine (which is the equivalent of being devoured by the Dragon) will not suffer further.

And just so it is very clear. I am not trying to accuse you of being like the Pharisees in respect to your attitude or of being like minded with them in any way. I have read many of your posts and value your input. It is just that on this particular topic I personally think you are way off the mark and are trying to construct an argument that is illogical and impractical.

James summed it up well in another thread. "We are to stand back and view the scriptures through a telescope then study them under a microscope." I think you are using the microscope too much and need to stand back at the telescope for awhile. :-)

peace
When your words came, I ate them; they were my joy and my heart's delight, for I bear your name, O LORD God Almighty. Jer.15:16

larry
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Re: THE MAN CHILD

Post by larry » Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:50 am

Dear sawdust, since we cannot agree on this subject, I do hope that we can agree to disagree.

Thanks for your input in Jesus name - larry
All here stated in the name of the Lord Jesus hopefully to God's glory - larry

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Re: THE MAN CHILD

Post by sawdust » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:25 am

larry wrote:Dear sawdust, since we cannot agree on this subject, I do hope that we can agree to disagree.

Thanks for your input in Jesus name - larry



No problem. :happy:

peace
When your words came, I ate them; they were my joy and my heart's delight, for I bear your name, O LORD God Almighty. Jer.15:16

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