The second coming of Christ

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sawdust
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Re: The second coming of Christ

Post by sawdust » Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:58 pm

crosswalk wrote:Has anyone ever considered the fact since the pre-trib Rapture theory only became widely accepted in the late 19th century and the 20th century that it just may be a seed planted be Satan himself to cunningly lead people into a false sense of security so that many would not prepare themselves spiritually for his coming.


Not me. The Apostles taught the the doctrine of the Imminency of the Resurrection. It is why Paul had to re-instruct the Thessalonians regarding the Resurrection because people had started to die and they thought they had missed the Resurrection.

peace
When your words came, I ate them; they were my joy and my heart's delight, for I bear your name, O LORD God Almighty. Jer.15:16

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Re: The second coming of Christ

Post by sawdust » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:04 pm

crosswalk wrote:PRE-TRIB RAPTURE ARGUMENT NUMBER 1:

God is a loving God and would NEVER allow his children to suffer through the great tribulation. Hence, we will be leaving through the rapture before it occurs.


That might be an argument for some (if they're desparate ;-) ) but it certainly is not an argument I would give.

peace
When your words came, I ate them; they were my joy and my heart's delight, for I bear your name, O LORD God Almighty. Jer.15:16

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Re: The second coming of Christ

Post by crosswalk » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:12 pm

sawdust wrote:
crosswalk wrote:PRE-TRIB RAPTURE ARGUMENT NUMBER 1:

God is a loving God and would NEVER allow his children to suffer through the great tribulation. Hence, we will be leaving through the rapture before it occurs.


That might be an argument for some (if they're desparate ;-) ) but it certainly is not an argument I would give.

peace


Me either

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Re: The second coming of Christ

Post by crosswalk » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:18 pm

Newness wrote:Has anyone ever thought that the argument that the pre-trib rapture view as being only just over a century old is a Satanic fabrication? People since Christ have believed in the pre-tribulational Rapture of the Church.

Whether one believes Tribulation has begun or not, the Raprure takes place around that time. Jesus said to look up when these things BEGIN to take place.

I'm looking for my Redeemer to come (not set down His feet) and scoop up His Bride and take Her away. The remaining Gentiles and Jews are what God will deal with during the wrath of Tribulation, not meant for the Bride.


Please show me wher you found this information that no one else has. it state in 1830...The reformers of the Protestant Church did not teachg,,,you know Martin Luther Calvin St Augustine...those guys that protested the RCC. the guys that stated the basic belief that you hold today.

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Re: The second coming of Christ

Post by James4_14 » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:20 pm

Exactly Newness to your previous post. No need to complicate things. Let the Bible speak for itself in ALL cases.

Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.KJV

This is for Jacob (Israel) and the only ones sealed at that time are the 144,000. ALL are Jewish witnesses and it would seem that they do a
better job than the church does today.

Aside from what Rev. 4 has to offer, I have about thirty MORE reasons for the pre-trib. Hollywood has NO ONE there that can come up with that many. I shall present them when I return from Bible conference tonight if this is the proper venue for them. Please let me know if this is, in fact, the appropriate venue.




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Re: The second coming of Christ

Post by sawdust » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:27 pm

crosswalk wrote:One does not have to read very much of prophecy to see that we are living in the days of the tribulation already.


The period known as the Tribulation does not begin until the Anti-Christ makes a peace pact with the False Prophet of Israel. The Tribulation is Daniel's last week. It applys to Israel not the Church. We are not in the Tribulation.

That we have tribulation cannot be denied. Tribulation in that sense began with Adam's fall. All the days of the earth's history beginning with the Fall till the Second Advent are days of tribulation. It can be no other way for those who live in an evil world yet desire righteousness.

peace
When your words came, I ate them; they were my joy and my heart's delight, for I bear your name, O LORD God Almighty. Jer.15:16

Newnes

Re: The second coming of Christ

Post by Newnes » Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:42 am

crosswalk wrote:
Newness wrote:Has anyone ever thought that the argument that the pre-trib rapture view as being only just over a century old is a Satanic fabrication? People since Christ have believed in the pre-tribulational Rapture of the Church.

Whether one believes Tribulation has begun or not, the Raprure takes place around that time. Jesus said to look up when these things BEGIN to take place.

I'm looking for my Redeemer to come (not set down His feet) and scoop up His Bride and take Her away. The remaining Gentiles and Jews are what God will deal with during the wrath of Tribulation, not meant for the Bride.


Please show me wher you found this information that no one else has. it state in 1830...The reformers of the Protestant Church did not teachg,,,you know Martin Luther Calvin St Augustine...those guys that protested the RCC. the guys that stated the basic belief that you hold today.


One needs to step back behnd the advent of the RCC to regain what the first churches understood. The RCC has distorted what they had.

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Re: The second coming of Christ

Post by James4_14 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:52 am

sawdust wrote:
everready wrote:
One thing I'm not familiar with is mid trib maybe you would be so kind as to explain what it means?

Image

everready


Well, eschatology is not my strongest study point but I will give you my understanding to date.

The mid-trib is the point where the Anti-Christ reveals himself to be the False Saviour. It is when he sets up his own image in the temple thereby desecrating it. It is after this time that the Lord begins to pour out His judgement on the evil of this world in full measure. It is this period of time (3.5 years) that is also known as the Great Tribulation because of this reason.

peace



Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
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Re: The second coming of Christ

Post by everready » Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:27 am

Image

I'm Post-Trib all the way, a couple of things that we have to consider one, the martyred saints during the dark ages better known as the Inquisitions. In all honesty I can't picture strolling past heavens gates telling those saints that our generation was blessed and they were cannon fodder and then let the chips fall where they lay. One text that suggests that we will suffer suffer at the hands of man not God.

Philippians 1: 28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
30 Having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me.

The early church right up to the present day has been tortured slaughtered by the thousands, millions. I know who is behind the brutality but here is neither the time
or the place. The early church had their Caesars they had an audience that couldn't
quite get their fill of the horrors that happened in the Colosseum in Rome. If you haven't heard it yet man is evil from his youth, todays horrendous car pile up the more the merrier
as an example. Back to that Colosseum they had at their disposal various wild life, Lions Tigers Gorillas and Bears waiting to rip them to shreads. Step back and view the carnage there they were Ward, June, Walley and the Beaver out for a Friday nights showing of the trouble starters it twas those Christians.

Image



Before you say it can't happen here, waltz into a country where this brutality is practiced to this day.

everready

Image
Image
Isaiah 26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.

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Re: The second coming of Christ

Post by sawdust » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:51 pm

everready wrote:
Before you say it can't happen here, waltz into a country where this brutality is practiced to this day.

everready


No-one who is pre-trib Resurrection of the Church would say that persecution and matyrdom is ruled out because you are a Christian.

As best as I can see everyone I talk to who is post-trib fails to separate the Church and Israel. You cannot apply the prophecies concerning Israel and apply them to the Church. The Church has been given no prophecies except the resurrection of the body.

But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 1Cor.15:23

The word translated "turn" above is "tagma" in the Greek. It means something arranged in order (like a troop). It can be translated set or class. It comes from a word meaning to arrange in order according to position or lot.

All those who belong in the Kingdom of God (ie those who belong to Him) are resurrected according to their own class or distinction. The Church is one set, Israel is another set, Millenium saints are another set. Christ is, obviously, in a class of His own.

It should be no surprise members of the Church are killed and brutalised yesterday, today or tomorrow. Satan has been waging war against the Lord longer than man has been on the earth. Lucifer hates the Lord Jesus Christ with a venom that makes our current day racism look like kindergarten bullying. That hatred has been unleashed on men from the begginning. (remember Abel?)

It is the basic M.O. of the Lord to remove those who believe from His wrath before it is poured out. Noah removed before the flood. Lot removed before the destruction of Sodom. The Church removed before the tribulation. Even during the tribulation a place has been prepared for the Jewish believers to escape to before the wrath of God is poured out. Those believers will not suffer the atrocities that will be witnessed in Jerusalem if they flee to that place before the desecration of the temple. That place will be the only safe place for them during that time. Believers are never subjected to the wrath of God.

peace
When your words came, I ate them; they were my joy and my heart's delight, for I bear your name, O LORD God Almighty. Jer.15:16

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